Israel / Palestine

[virtual9mm]

How do you expect the Palestinian civilians to surrender? Hamas is not them…none of us were alive for WW2, but I would not have been ok with dropping a nuke on Japan..killing civilians should always be avoided at all costs, not used to force a surrender.

If you were President instead of Truman you would be responsible for an extra couple hundred thousand American deaths in WWII. Just as many Japanese would have probably died without using the nukes if we even won and it would be bloody as hell. We weren’t stopping until unconditional surrender. Same with Germany.

Like I said Hamas was formed by a Palestinian and how many of its soldiers are Palestinians? The Palestinians are total neutered sheep with no balls whatsoever to make any decisions for themselves according you guys.

How do you expect the average Palestinian citizen to stop Hamas? Should you take blame for all the things Trump did in office?

Nodack has a point, a very ugly but true point. What Hamas did had a 70% approval rate in Gaza before the Israelis counterattacked. You can't just handwave that away.

That being said, I am not sure the Truman analogy is correct. Truman had the chance to save lives by dropping the bomb. It was estimated that millions of Japanese civilians would die in an invasion of the home islands. Can you really argue that this is true today?

Also, the Israelis started out with the moral high ground but have very much lost it now. Indiscriminate killing of civilians to force them out of a territory. Allowing settler terror squads in the West Bank, which has had nothing to do with this conflict, to pull a Sudan in Darfur or Burma on the Rogingya. We call this ethnic cleansing. The ugly truth is that a state founded to prevent genocide is now doing exactly that.

And at what point are you risking a full regional war? Are you proposing a full Iraq style invasion of Iran? Because this is where escalation will get us...and we are far weaker today, largely because of the Iraq War.

[Mori Chu]

Hamas has a high approval rate partly because people there are afraid of openly criticizing them.

[Superbone]

How do you expect the Palestinian civilians to surrender? Hamas is not them…none of us were alive for WW2, but I would not have been ok with dropping a nuke on Japan..killing civilians should always be avoided at all costs, not used to force a surrender.

If you were President instead of Truman you would be responsible for an extra couple hundred thousand American deaths in WWII. Just as many Japanese would have probably died without using the nukes if we even won and it would be bloody as hell. We weren’t stopping until unconditional surrender. Same with Germany.

Like I said Hamas was formed by a Palestinian and how many of its soldiers are Palestinians? The Palestinians are total neutered sheep with no balls whatsoever to make any decisions for themselves according you guys.

“Thank God for the Atom Bomb”
The New Republic - August 1981
by Paul Fussell

https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iak ... 20bomb.pdf

[Nodack]

Nodack has a point, a very ugly but true point. What Hamas did had a 70% approval rate in Gaza before the Israelis counterattacked. You can't just handwave that away.

I was just reading a few more articles trying to gather more info on reality in that area of the world. I think Hamas still has a high approval rate today. According to the average Palestinian, there were no civilians killed in the Oct 7 raid. It was a legitimate act of defiance and was celebrated as a just good thing.



I read another article talking about the leader of the Palestinian Authority and how he was voted out in favor of Hamas.

Poll shows sustained Palestinian support for Hamas despite mounting Gaza death toll
Survey shows sustained level of support with just 11 percent of Palestinians wanting PA's Mahmoud Abbas to administer the enclave
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war- ... death-toll

That being said, I am not sure the Truman analogy is correct. Truman had the chance to save lives by dropping the bomb. It was estimated that millions of Japanese civilians would die in an invasion of the home islands. Can you really argue that this is true today?

Dropping the bomb I think saved a lot of lives, especially American ones. Japanese people were terrified of the evil Americans that rape and torture everyone according to their propaganda to keep them from surrendering. They committed suicide to avoid capture during our island campaign. Now that I think about it, reality tells me that if we didn’t invent the nuclear bomb and had to go into Japan and take it the hard way we would have probably just firebombed all their wooden cities from bases we established close by until they gave up. Maybe we would have to go in. Hard to say. Russia was also working on getting nukes and would have if we didn’t. What would the world look like today if only Russia had nukes?

https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo
The firebombings continued until the end of the war, with an estimated 300,000–330,000 Japanese civilians killed and at least 8 million left homeless, and with an estimated 40 percent of Japan’s urban areas destroyed; 60 percent of Tokyo itself went up in flames.

We killed more people lighting them on fire than both nukes combined. Today it seems almost everyone has nukes and the ones today are much more powerful than the one dropped on Hiroshima. If it comes to global nuclear war, we are all doomed.

Also, the Israelis started out with the moral high ground but have very much lost it now. Indiscriminate killing of civilians to force them out of a territory. Allowing settler terror squads in the West Bank, which has had nothing to do with this conflict, to pull a Sudan in Darfur or Burma on the Rogingya. We call this ethnic cleansing. The ugly truth is that a state founded to prevent genocide is now doing exactly that.

And at what point are you risking a full regional war? Are you proposing a full Iraq style invasion of Iran? Because this is where escalation will get us...and we are far weaker today, largely because of the Iraq War.

I am not proposing anything. Israel is going to do what Israel does and Iran/Hamas/Palestinians are going to do what they do and not give a damn what we think. I kind of took Israel’s side in this discussion because they were not represented here. I would think it was great if they all could live together side by side and not try to kill each other until the end of time.

I realize propaganda is thick everywhere on planet earth. Hamas is funded by Iran and we all know how much Iran and Israel like each other. I would imagine the propaganda against Israel in Gaza is pretty thick. I am not an expert on this topic but, have been learning as I go. They have been fighting for longer than I have been alive and I am getting old. There have been all kinds of battles involving many players from around the area over the years attempting to end Israel. Israel hasn’t been kind to the Palestinians either. Then again how nice are you going to be towards a person who has vowed to kill you and all your friends and family. I don’t like how many civilians Israel has killed. In war I think there is a fine line between ethnic cleansing and just war. One could argue we were ethnic cleansing the Japanese when we carpet bombed their cities. The war doesn’t end until one side gives up. Japan gave up. Can Hamas/Palestinian’s give up? It is a good point. Is Iran calling the shots? Do they care how many Palestinians die or do they only care about Israel suffering? Palestinians support Hamas even today. It’s not a good situation and I fear the Palestinians are just useful willing pawns in this regional conflict.

You are probably the smartest guy on here virtual9mm. You know this conflict. You know it has been going on forever with no sign of stopping ever. I have asked this question over and over of people here and no one really has an answer. What would you propose to end this conflict? A cease fire? What does that gain? A stop in immediate hostilities? You saw the stats. Palestinians hold a favorable view of Hamas. If Israel decides to completely pull back today and end all hostilities in Gaza, what do you think will happen? Could Israel rest easy knowing that Iran/Hamas/Palestinians would never think of attacking them again? I am 100% certain that the first chance they get, they would resume hostilities towards Israel and all of this would have been for nothing and just another bloody chapter in the endless war. I have seen it over and over and over…

I am also curious what your thoughts are on the founding of Israel. The UN created it and that really pissed off a lot of people. The founding of Israel was justified but, what about its placement? Was it justified? Israel’s neighbors were not happy about it and have been showing their displeasure for some time. Maybe because of this, this will never end.

How do you expect the average Palestinian citizen to stop Hamas? Should you take blame for all the things Trump did in office?

We as a country take the blame for all the things Trump did in office. He was the elected leader who represented the US. If he started a war we would all be at war and our enemy wouldn’t blame just Trump. They would blame us all as one like they do in all wars since there were wars.

[Split T]

Well I don’t agree with your last point at all, I am not taking the blame for anything Trump(or Biden)did or does. Though I did vote for Biden, so I’m more culpable.

No one has a good answer on how to resolve it, you say that Hamas will attack right back if Israel stops and I agree they likely will at some point…however, what is Israel’s end game? Are they just going to keep going until every Palestinian is dead? Would that be justified? Are they going to invade Iran next? I don’t see the end game for Israel either.

[virtual9mm]

Nodack, thanks for the kind words but I really am not that smart. Let me give you an example, a very relevant one.

In 2016, I was indirectly and very accidentally on very good terms with Hillary's foreign policy team. I wasn't seeking it but somehow it just happened. That year, I also grew close with a gentleman who was just starting a professorship at Berkeley. He was born in Palestine and grew up a refugee in Homs. This is before the Syrian government blew it to pieces, of course. He couldn't go home but his wife came from Qatari money so he lived very, very comfortably but also in pain - not being able to see his ill father, etc.

When he tried to tell me how messed up American policy was, I just said that the US has really smart people on the case, and that the problem would be solved. He looked at me incredulously and we ended up having an intense but still friendly shouting match after a bottle and a half of wine each. I saw Hillary fixing things in the Middle East - well, her experts. He saw the coming decline of the US.

It is clear who ended up being right. The folks who were gathered together as Hillary's shadow State department scattered in shock. Some of them were offered to Putin by Trump. Nobody saw it coming, and I was chastised for even daring to mention that Trump could just possibly win.

Based on this experience, I stay as far away from policy. I don't know anything about the region. Neither do the "experts". Who is to say that the US should intervene beyond really basic things like not pulling out of Afghanistan too abruptly? What do we know? What can we do except to break our own, very fragile country even further?

I was talking to a friend, a good man, someone in Westminister who still believes in the power of policy. He defended the British actions in Transjordan by saying the worst of the violence happened after the British pulled out. This is the kind of self serving but ultimately honest and genuine belief you find in the foreign policy establishment.

I don't think there is much the US can do. I am not sure what we SHOULD do. But if we stick to the basics, like calling genocide for what it is, it would be a good start. Like, call out Israel for the settler death squads roaming around the West Bank for starters. This is no better than what the Tatmidaw did to the Rogingya and what the Janjaweed did in Darfur. It is an attempt to grab territory by terrorizing the native population.

[Nodack]

Terror seems to be a big part of any war. You need to make the population feel fear, pain and suffering. Putin attacking Ukraine knows this. He wants the people of Ukraine to be terrorized. Send bombs into their cities. Shut their power off and make them cold in the winter. Make them want to give up. Putin tells his people it’s just a military incursion and nothing to worry about. Ukraine knows the rules too and has opened up a new front into Russia and has caused a lot of terror to Russian citizens, which in turn ratchets up the pressure on Putin. The US and NATO countries sanction Russia to hurt their economy. Make it harder to finance your war. Make the people suffer. Lay siege to a city? Ever hear select that? It happened all the time in history. Cut off their supplies and starve them out until they give up. War sucks. People die brutally. I was in Serajevo Bosnia right after the war and got a tour of the city. There were splotches of paint painted on the streets signifying every place a person was killed by a Serb sniper. There were a lot of paint splotches. They rained terror on the city. IFOR stepped in and stopped the suffering.

War is about winning. You picked a fight with us and now we are going to kill you and your people until you give up. The Palestinians seem willing to all die for their cause. Iran is perfectly willing to let all the Palestinians die for their cause. Israel seems willing to let them die for their cause.

What is Israel’s end game? I think they are sick of defending themselves against attacks year after year and have decided to hurt the Palestinians and Hamas real bad this time in response to Hamas/Palestinians hurting them real bad Oct 7. How far is too far? How far were we willing to go after Pearl Harbor or 9/11?

[virtual9mm]

Terror seems to be a big part of any war. You need to make the population feel fear, pain and suffering. Putin attacking Ukraine knows this. He wants the people of Ukraine to be terrorized. Send bombs into their cities. Shut their power off and make them cold in the winter. Make them want to give up. Putin tells his people it’s just a military incursion and nothing to worry about. Ukraine knows the rules too and has opened up a new front into Russia and has caused a lot of terror to Russian citizens, which in turn ratchets up the pressure on Putin. The US and NATO countries sanction Russia to hurt their economy. Make it harder to finance your war. Make the people suffer. Lay siege to a city? Ever hear select that? It happened all the time in history. Cut off their supplies and starve them out until they give up. War sucks. People die brutally. I was in Serajevo Bosnia right after the war and got a tour of the city. There were splotches of paint painted on the streets signifying every place a person was killed by a Serb sniper. There were a lot of paint splotches. They rained terror on the city. IFOR stepped in and stopped the suffering.

War is about winning. You picked a fight with us and now we are going to kill you and your people until you give up. The Palestinians seem willing to all die for their cause. Iran is perfectly willing to let all the Palestinians die for their cause. Israel seems willing to let them die for their cause.

What is Israel’s end game? I think they are sick of defending themselves against attacks year after year and have decided to hurt the Palestinians and Hamas real bad this time in response to Hamas/Palestinians hurting them real bad Oct 7. How far is too far? How far were we willing to go after Pearl Harbor or 9/11?

Except the irony of a state founded to prevent genocide waging a genocidal war itself. I am all for giving Israelis defensive weapons. But not weapons that could be used to annihilate an entire people so Israel could take their land. And given that this is the truth, why would everyday Palestinians not side with Hamas to avoid being annihilated?

I am happy to continue posting jobs at the Israeli consulate to my students, work with Israeli companies, and so forth. But I still think Netanyahu should face trial at the Hague for genocide.

[Split T]

What is Israel’s end game? I think they are sick of defending themselves against attacks year after year and have decided to hurt the Palestinians and Hamas real bad this time in response to Hamas/Palestinians hurting them real bad Oct 7. How far is too far? How far were we willing to go after Pearl Harbor or 9/11?

I think most of us already think they’ve gone too far. I want to know what you think Nodack…is there a point where you will stop supporting what Israel is doing? Have they not already hurt Hamas and Palestine real bad?

[Nodack]

I see your point up to a point. I do see Israel taking more and more land from the Palestinians throughout the years in retaliation for their attacks and I am not cool with that. I also can’t get over the fact that every country in the area wants to destroy Israel. The Palestinians sided with Hamas a long time ago. Long before Oct 7 and long before this latest outbreak of hostilities. They didn’t side with Hamas because they were worried about genocide and wanted protection. They sided with Hamas with the desire of wiping Israel off the map. That is the definition of genocide. They have specifically made that their lifelong goal. That might not mean anything to some of you but it definitely impacts my view on things. There can be no peace ever under thieve rules.

I think most of us already think they’ve gone too far. I want to know what you think Nodack…is there a point where you will stop supporting what Israel is doing? Have they not already hurt Hamas and Palestine real bad?

I am not sure what too far is. If Israel isn’t going to finish the job then why bother starting it? What would be the point? What is finishing the job? Hamas/Palestinians surrendering or at least agreeing to end hostilities against Israel. We didn’t stop WWII after Japan was pushed back to their own border. There is no way we would stop until Japan surrendered. Same with Germany. In Afghanistan nobody surrendered. We eventually just left and Afghanistan is right back to where it was. I am not thrilled with Israel seemingly targeting civilians. Then again in any real war I have ever seem civilians are definitely targeted. Hurting Hamas/Palestinians real bad is the same as Hamas/Palestinians hurting Israel real bad. They have both been really good at that for a long time and where has that gotten us? The same place we started.

Maybe Israel should just pull back and accept the fact that they will be under constant attack for the rest of eternity and there is absolutely nothing they can do to about it.

[Split T]

Casualties from 2008-2023:

Palestinians: 6407
Israelis: 308

Casualties during current conflict:

Palestinians: 40,000+
Israelis: 907

Israel has an army of over 500,000
Palestine is at 37,000

1.9 million Palestinians have been displaced. Another 10,000 Palestinians are missing. Nearly 100,000 wounded.

Obviously the attacks over the years from the Palestinian side are bad and I’m not going to pretend to understand the history there…but the numbers don’t look like both sides are doing the same thing.

[Nodack]

The numbers are bad and yet the side losing is the side that initiates the attacks every time. It boggles my mind. The Palestinian side attacks. Israel responds and instantly becomes the evil aggressors attacking the poor defenseless Palestinians, every time. Yes, Israel’s military is much more powerful than anything Hamas has and yet that doesn’t deter the Palestinian side from attacking, every time.


Not sure about the numbers. 1200 Israeli’s died on Oct 7 alone. That doesn’t count any since then in the war that has followed.

[Split T]

The numbers are bad and yet the side losing is the side that initiates the attacks every time. It boggles my mind. The Palestinian side attacks. Israel responds and instantly becomes the evil aggressors attacking the poor defenseless Palestinians, every time. Yes, Israel’s military is much more powerful than anything Hamas has and yet that doesn’t deter the Palestinian side from attacking, every time.


Not sure about the numbers. 1200 Israeli’s died on Oct 7 alone. That doesn’t count any since then in the war that has followed.

I just pulled it from Wikipedia…maybe it wasn’t counting 10/7…either way it’s still 40,000 to 2,000.

My point is maybe just maybe the response from Israel is too much.

[Nodack]

I would say the same thing if this was a one off. This has been a constant thing for 70+ years. What has made this one different? The scale of the attack by Hamas.



1,200 people
Hamas’ Oct. 7 invasion of Israel was a seismic moment in Israeli and Jewish history: Hamas terrorists killed approximately 1,200 people that day, mostly civilians, took hostages and wounded thousands — making it the bloodiest day in Israeli history and the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust.
https://www.jta.org/2024/01/12/israel/1 ... 0Holocaust.

I am asking you. What should be the reaction from Israel from the Oct 7 attack?

[Split T]

I don’t know, but not killing 40,000 Palestinians(over half being women and children) would be a start. Not destroying all their schools and hospitals and making the land essentially unlivable.

There’s not a good answer here, it’s a bad situation and both sides seem to hate eachother and take the opportunity to let each other know with little attacks…Hamas clearly escalated with the attack on 10/7, but that doesn’t justify killing 40,000 people and displacing essentially everyone. You say it’s Palestine’s goal to wipe Israel off the map, well Israel seems to be the one actually doing that.

[Mori Chu]

I've tried making these points with Nodack, but it seems he feels Israel is justified in what they're doing. I think Nodack is a reasonable guy but I can't really square with his views on this topic, so I have not engaged on it as much lately. I still post in here sometimes when headlines come up, but the back and forth discussion and debating about it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

[Nodack]

I don’t have a stake in the game. I am just a bystander with many years of experience being a bystander. I used to hate history in school. Once I got older I started getting into it more and more in an attempt to understand the world we live in. Wars are not new. History is filled with them. Wars are not fair.

There is no rule saying you are only allowed to use the same force as those attacking you. Hamas killed ten? Then Israel is allowed to kill ten and only using the same military hardware as Hamas and only in areas where there are no Palestinians. Hamas attacks again next week and kills 24? Then Israel is allowed to kill 24 only using Hamas weapons and not in the area of any Palestinians. Hamas a month later fires 2000 rockets at Israel from behind a hospital in Gaza killing 15. Then Israel is allowed to fire rockets at Hamas killing no more than 15 and only in areas of Gaza where there are no Palestinians. This is silly.

A dozen Al Queda guys made 9/11 happen. The US vowed revenge. The Taliban in Afghanistan refused to hand over Bin Laden. The Taliban and Al Queda used AK-47’s, RPG’s and a few pu trucks with machine guns mounted. Did the US come in with a dozen guys with AK-47’s and rpg’s? No, we used everything in our arsenal minus nukes to destroy anyone that got in our way, including 46,000 civilians. Was that genocide? Just the air raids alone in WWII killed 350,000-500,000 German civilians. WWII claimed the lives of between 40-50 million people. War is bad and kills a lot of people. War is emotional. You killed our people. Now your people are going to die.

I see your points. Do you see my points? How do you guys feel about all the innocent civilians the US has killed in wars in the past. I am ok with it because it was war. It’s a fight to the death. Do not start a war and then complain when the other guy fights back. Israel could have destroyed Gaza a long long time ago if they wanted. They didn’t. Hamas/Palestinians would have destroyed Israel if they could a long long time ago.

This time Israel said enough. We are done with this stupid game.

[Nodack]

Well I don’t agree with your last point at all, I am not taking the blame for anything Trump(or Biden)did or does.

On a global scale, no one cares if you want to take the blame or not. If we got into a war with another country, you would just be another enemy civilian that they bomb. Ultimately our enemies hold us all responsible for what decisions our leaders make. They aren’t going to hand out forms to sign where you get to say you don’t agree with and aren’t responsible for the decisions your leaders made, therefore should be exempt from any punitive damages.

[Split T]

That doesn’t mean I need to hold every citizen of other countries responsible for what their government does.

Your points to me sound like this, “Other people have done bad stuff in war so why can’t Israel do bad stuff?”

To me it’s still bad. I’ll call out Hamas and I’ll call out Israel and I’ll call out the US. Nobody should be killing civilians.

[Cap]

This time Israel said enough. We are done with this stupid game.

Unfortunately, the current strategy of unleashing death and destruction until their spirit is broken is not going to end this stupid game.