Israel / Palestine

[Mori Chu]

F this guy.

[Nodack]

I agree. Is he attempting to shame Biden and Dems into giving more aid or is he politicking for Trump?


In the 2018 midterms, Jews were again the most Democratic group as designated by religious identity, with 79% voting for the Democrats while 17% voted for the Republicans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... epublicans.

[Mori Chu]

Bibi likes Trump because Trump and the GOP are more unwavering in their unconditional support of Israel (and in their dislike for Muslims, including Palestinians) than the Democrats.

[Mori Chu]

I agree with AOC.

[Nodack]

He is an asshole but, he is the leader of Israel. The Cons certainly have a better relationship with Israel than the Dems even though most Jews in the US are Dems. Obama and Biden have been on sort of rocky terms with Bibi over the years. The Dems aren’t as willing as the Cons to write off everything Israel does and that has caused some friction. I am good with the friction. They don’t tell us what to do. Don’t try to shame us into giving you what you want. He is here to address Congress and ask for more weapons. He should tread lightly.

[Mori Chu]

Meanwhile, the Israeli government / military continues to bomb and kill innocent Palestinian civilians. Oops, there was a Hamas lair hidden in that school! Better bomb and kill everyone inside.

[Mori Chu]

Israeli military just bombed the Abasan school in Gaza, killing dozens of innocent civilians. This horrifying video captures the incident as it happened. The kids were in the schoolyard playing and then, boom, many of them dead or seriously injured. I suppose this evil school was secretly a Hamas hideout, hmm? Totally okay to just drop missiles on it and kill a bunch of kids?

[Mori Chu]

UN Court rules that Israeli occupation of Gaza is in violation of international law.

[ShadowHawke]

Not sure if this was discussed earlier, but can't really say the UN is objective in this case.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/a ... y-a7de8f36

[Mori Chu]

A harrowing view into the apartheid being committed in Gaza by the Israeli government.

[Mori Chu]

The IDF snipers explicitly target children and shoot them.

[Mori Chu]

Gaza has been so devastated that long-gone diseases like polio are resurging there. So the IDF vaccinates their soldiers to keep them safe; the actual Gazans are not so lucky.

[Superbone]

This was eye opening:

[ShadowHawke]

Mori,

What is the culpability of the "innocent Palestian civilians" when their duly elected government decides to invade another country?

Should Roosevelt be tried for war crimes for the Dresden firebombing, done at the request of the Soviets?

How about Truman for using Atomic weapons?

For a more current example, Obama assissinating US citizens without due process via drone strikes?

Who was living in the area when it was first called Palestine?

[Mori Chu]

The fact that you put the phrase "innocent civilians" in quotes is pretty telling. I don't know what to tell you. In war, civilians are innocent until proven otherwise. Civilians are not responsible for the actions of their country's military, and it is considered out-of-bounds in war to intentionally target civilians. Of any country.

Hamas is the "duly elected government" of Palestine, yes. But they haven't held any elections for like 20 years or more, and they are hostile to anyone who opposes them, and they put out propaganda to try to garner support. So it doesn't surprise me that when Palestinians are polled, a majority of them favor Hamas or say that they favor Hamas. That doesn't make it okay to bomb them and commit genocide against them.

If Donald Trump bombed, say, Yemen, and then Yemen bombed the US and killed your family, would we say that Yemen was justified because American civilians are not "innocent" because they voted Trump to be their President? Isn't that basically what we are describing here? I'd hope you would say that that's ludicrous, that the American civilians aren't fair targets for killing and war just because their leader or military did something.

[ShadowHawke]

You not answering my questions is telling in and of itself.

[Split T]

Can you explain who you are talking about with Obama killing us citizens? The drone strike that killed Anwar al-Awlaki? Was he not a terrorist linked to Al-qaeda? Seems very different from killing innocent civilians

[Mori Chu]

You not answering my questions is telling in and of itself.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to dodge your questions. Here, let me try my best to respond to them individually:

What is the culpability of the "innocent Palestian civilians" when their duly elected government decides to invade another country?

I am not an expert on this, but to the best of my understanding, their culpability is: none. As long as they are not taking up arms and involved in the war or conflict, civilians are not responsible for war crimes committed by governments. Most war crimes laws are written in terms of protecting civilians and about the illegality and inappropriateness of targeting civilians for violence in wars. Specifically, just because Palestinians happen to be governed by Hamas does not mean that it is okay to kill and bomb them, to starve them, to commit other atrocities against them.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreventio ... imes.shtml
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-ru ... onventions

Civilians are protected against direct attack unless, and for such time, as they directly participate in hostilities. Parties to an armed conflict must take all feasible precautions in determining whether a person is a civilian and, if that is the case, whether he or she is directly participating in hostilities.

In case of doubt, the person in question must be presumed to be a civilian and protected against direct attack. To protect civilians, combatants – and anyone directly participating in hostilities – must distinguish themselves from civilians in all military operations by wearing identifiable insignia and carrying arms openly. The ICRC has issued Interpretive Guidance which provides recommendations concerning the interpretation of IHL as it relates to the concept of direct participation in hostilities.

Should Roosevelt be tried for war crimes for the Dresden firebombing, done at the request of the Soviets? How about Truman for using Atomic weapons?

I don't really know much about these incidents. I don't confer any special status on the US; if our past leaders committed war crimes, they should have been held accountable.

For a more current example, Obama assissinating US citizens without due process via drone strikes?

Did Obama assassinate US citizens? I am unaware of this. Can you give a link or citation so I can learn more? I thought Obama-era drone strikes were against Middle Eastern military targets, but I am happy to read more. As with the previous question, if Barack Obama or other US leaders (from any political party) committed war crimes against civilians, I am happy for them to be investigated or tried to face accountability for their actions.

Who was living in the area when it was first called Palestine?

This gets into the long and bloody history of the Israel / Palestine / Middle East / holy land that I prefer to abstain from. I realize that there's a lot of atrocity and bloodshed in the region in the past. I am not here to say who exactly should be living on what square footage of land. I do think that there is clearly a Palestinian population and culture that seems like they should have some safe place to live within the region, and clearly there is an Israeli country and population that should have a place to live as well. I don't know enough about the history to say exactly what land ought to belong to whom.

But I do feel qualified to say that I do not support either side (or anybody else) indiscriminately murdering civilians, even if they claim to be doing so in service of some war or conflict, or trying to kill "bad guys" who might happen to be hiding near those civilians.

[specialsauce]

Mori,

What is the culpability of the "innocent Palestian civilians" when their duly elected government decides to invade another country?

Should Roosevelt be tried for war crimes for the Dresden firebombing, done at the request of the Soviets?

How about Truman for using Atomic weapons?

For a more current example, Obama assissinating US citizens without due process via drone strikes?

Who was living in the area when it was first called Palestine?

The final question shows you have no interest in any reasonable measures.

And to blame civilians for the actions of their elected government is embarrassing. I want nothing to do with the actions of Trump. Or Biden for that matter.

[AmareIsGod]

Mori,

What is the culpability of the "innocent Palestian civilians" when their duly elected government decides to invade another country?

Should Roosevelt be tried for war crimes for the Dresden firebombing, done at the request of the Soviets?

How about Truman for using Atomic weapons?

For a more current example, Obama assissinating US citizens without due process via drone strikes?

Who was living in the area when it was first called Palestine?

As if they seriously have a choice. You have to be kidding me. Hamas controls everything there so much that there's no goddamn way they wouldn't win an election. Do you really think it's some sort of fair system there where the Palestinians are gladly and freely electing Hamas as their government?

Further, no national elections have been held since 2006, with planned elections repeatedly postponed. So get the fuck out of here trying to claim Palestinians are happy with and electing Hamas as their government by choice.